How are attic slopes modeled for foam insulation. When ever I've added a foamed slope I get a very low SIR with virtually no savings. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks

Views: 231

Replies to This Discussion

You are doing nothing wrong.  Modelling software does not properly reflect savings and I suspect 2 reasons: 

1 - Air sealing.  Foam provides insulation AND air sealing.  Once you play with this you start to see that the bigger direct energy benefit of foam is air sealing.  (Like a furnace with an ECM blower, you need to combine savings from multiple benefits).  So remember not to obsess on one improvement, step back and look at the whole impact.  

Oh - and smaller furnaces tend to model higher consumption, THAT has proven over and over to be TOTALLY inaccurate.  So be cautious relying on the software for design.  It's A tool, not THE tool. The most important tool is above your shoulders.

2 - Conditioned Space vs Unintentionally Conditioned Space.  When you redefine an attic the software sees the additional space as additional load.  In practice this space is an insulating buffer in and of itself.  Heat transfer from conditioned to unintentionally conditioned is very slow due to small delta.  And heat lost from unintentionally conditioned to outdoors is slower because IT has a smaller delta.  

I'm sorry this is not a very scientific explanation, but it's a conclusion arrived at by struggling with the same question you are asking.  In NY there is a "work around" that moves existing insulation to the surface being improved, then adding the foam to the existing surface.  

Remember, SIR is an absurdity.  Net cost is what people are really concerned about.  True up your model, use accurate fuel rates, and you can get pretty accurate net cost.  We've experienced realization of between .9 and 1.3, which feels about as close to dead nuts as one could expect given unforeseeable variables of behavior and weather.  

Ok , so put some of the cost for foam as an air sealing improvement, that I got. Unfortunately Home Performance w/ Energy Star requires an SIR of 1.01 and if the heating fuel is gas or electric it must pass a TRC of 1.

So I'll see how it all works out.

Thanks

In March they changed the rules.  Some improvements are "deemed" cost effective even if they are not cost effective.  (love that one, this thing has turned into a Frankenstein monster.)  

Then later they changed the rules again.  I believe Natural Gas requires SIR of .8

For approval I think air sealing can't be more than 49% of the cost.  

Combine machine gun "change notifications" that are then not followed up with updated Eligible Measures lists and everyone is confused.  Because challenge and thus cost of getting jobs approved has gone through the roof, I believe very few are even trying to run work not "deemed" effective.  

Last one I'm aware of is January 1, which it completely inaccurate.  Good luck!

Paul, since you are in NY, call Earl Hicks or Terry Clough at CSG. They'll tell you the work around.  

RSS

Discussion Forum

Basic Heat loss information

Started by Luis Hernandez. Last reply by tedkidd Oct 30, 2014. 1 Reply

How to model a skylight

Started by Luis Hernandez. Last reply by Luis Hernandez Oct 16, 2014. 2 Replies

Modeling the apartment upstairs

Started by Luis Hernandez. Last reply by Ethan MacCormick Sep 26, 2014. 2 Replies

Modeling a Townhouse

Started by Luis Hernandez. Last reply by Luis Hernandez Jul 7, 2013. 4 Replies

Videos

  • Add Videos
  • View All

Latest Activity

Brad Cook replied to Jim Tenhundfeld's discussion LED's and motion sensors
"My first thought is whether the motion sensor and/or the LED lamp is a cheap one. I had so many…"
3 hours ago
John Wagner joined allen p tanner's group
Thumbnail

Energy Auditing Equipment for Sale, Trade or to Purchase

Discuss the pros and cons of the equipment you are interested in prior to purchase. Post equipment…See More
11 hours ago
Home Energy Magazine posted a blog post
11 hours ago
Jim Tenhundfeld posted a discussion

LED's and motion sensors

When completing an audit, a customer told me that when he installed a LED lamp in his outdoor…See More
16 hours ago
Barbara Smith posted videos
yesterday
CharlieK posted a discussion

Eco-Cottage Program Applauded By Housing Groups, Suppliers & Lenders

AmeriSus a leading player in the eco-kit home business kicked off a new program on MLK-day which…See More
yesterday
Diane Chojnowski posted a discussion

Call for Nominations: Tony Woods Award and Building Performance Hall of Fame

The Building Performance Institute, Inc. (BPI) is seeking nominations for the 2017 Tony Woods Award…See More
yesterday
Diane Chojnowski added a discussion to the group 1000 Home Challenge
Thumbnail

January Webinar: Intro to the 1000 Home Challenge

The January Intro to the 1000 Home Challenge webinar will be  Friday, Jan 20 at 10-11:30 AM eastern…See More
yesterday

Home Energy Pros

Welcome to Home Energy Pros – the unique digital community by and for those who work in the home energy performance arena.

Home Energy Pros was founded by the developers of Home Energy Saver Pro (supported by the U.S. Department of Energy) and brought to you in partnership with Home Energy magazine.  Home Energy Pros is sponsored by the Better Buildings Residential Network. Please honor our Guidelines

© 2017   Created by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service