INFRARED THERMOGRAPHY USERS

Comment

Comment by TJ Ewing on November 9, 2010 at 7:38am

Hi Stuart,
thanks for the group clarification. I am still learning to 'think thermally.'

As for my "wet wall", I am leaning to the problem being a condensation issue versus leak. However a HERS rater friend stated it could be moisture draw from the outside to the inside through the brick and block? Here are the answers to your questions.

- Hard to tell if the anomaly goes all the way to the floor due to the heating unit, but it does go at least to the bottom of the bulletin board, and seems to be more concentrated behind the bulletin board (see images below). We plan to take it off for inspection.
- I don’t have an image of the ceiling adjacent to the wall. I did scan and saw no anomaly.
- I did scan the outside of the wall but again found no anomalies.
- There is an external roof runoff drain to a downspout on the outside of the wall, but no other support structures, berms or other influences.
- I have no info on the type of thermal barrier or vapor barrier used in the wall.
- The delta T was only about 10 degrees, and I plan to return for a second scan now that colder weather has arrived.
- See roof pic and thermogram below.

Here is the church’s rep’s articulation of the problem:
The wall has been a problem for many years. Whether there was a leak or not I'm not sure. Given the constant peeling, it was ASSUMED we might have had a roof leak and that (and other leaks) resulted in a new roof several years ago. Unfortunately, roof replacement did not stop the wet wall problem. To the best of my knowledge, the wall drips with moisture only in the summer months, particularly on hot, humid days. It tends to be along the whole wall, with heavier concentrations in the center.

Comment by Michael Stuart on November 8, 2010 at 9:04pm

TJ,

No... by all means... be as general or as specific as you would like. I don't know about the other members, but I find that both have a place in open discussion. I may have started this discussion forum, but I definitely do not propose to know everything about thermography or about buildings. We all have something to learn, and I just like to sit in the front row to be part of the discussion. That's the great thing about these forums! There is almost always a group of people that can complement each other in knowledge and experience.

All of the questions that I asked are actually questions that I would ask myself upon seeing an image like you presented on my imager. The thermal imager is nothing but a tool. Yes... it lets you see what you're eyes may not... but to gain the most from it, you still need to use your brain and ask a LOT of questions. (And on this forum, there are no "dumb questions".) To borrow a phrase from a colleague, you need to "Think Thermally", and try to understand all of the reasonable things that could be producing the thermal signature that you are seeing. Ask "Why?" always! Sometimes, you will be surprised that it may not have been what you had originally suspected. The more questions that you ask, the more confident you should be in your end analysis (in my opinion).

Does that make any sense? (or have I been drinking my own brand of infrared coolaid?) ;-)

With that being said, we should all probably refrain from listing specific addresses or buidling owners whenever possible. Other than that, I think that just about anything buildings and structures related is fair game. (...And probably the occasional "fun stuff" that comes with the territory.)

Any more details that you can provide about your wall? Go for it. (I'm sure that others may have questions too.)

Regards,

Michael

Comment by TJ Ewing on November 8, 2010 at 8:01pm

Hi Stuart,
I hope I didn’t breach any etiquette by bringing up a specific case. If you would rather reserve comment space for general issues I understand. You may not have intended this group discussion to be so specific. I’ll message you directly and let you guide it from there.
Thanks
TJ

Comment by Michael Stuart on November 8, 2010 at 10:19am

TJ,

Sorry for the "20 questions"... but... here you go:

Do you happen to have another image from further back? Or one with a slightly wider field of view? Does the anomaly continue down past the bulletin board to the floor or does it appear to stop mid-wall? Do you have any images of the ceiling area adjacent to the wall? Did you inspect the outside of the wall that corresponds to what you are seeing on the inside? Any downspouts, support structures, earthen berms, etc that may influence the thermal signatures on the wall? Does the wall "get wet" again after heavy rains? Any information on the type of thermal barrier and vapor barrier used in the wall? What was the Delta-T between the exterior of the wall and the interior surface? I take it that this section of the church has a low-slope roof. What kind of roof construction and materials? Standing water is never a good thing. (My first gut reaction is that there might be a roof leak that is entering the envelope and coming down the interior of this masonry wall, but without further investigation or answered questions, I would not venture to surmise more.)

Comment by TJ Ewing on November 8, 2010 at 9:31am

Hi All,
anyone have thoughts on the attached pics of a church masonry wall with external brick facade? The internal wall is wet during summer which may indicate condensation but could also be a vapor drive from external to internal? The roof above does not drain well and had standing water from last rain fall. Any infrared considerations I should take into account when imaging masonry walls?
Thanks for any input/questions.

Comment by Michael Stuart on November 8, 2010 at 7:30am

In case you all have not visited the events section of HEP, I wanted to point out that one of the group's members, John Snell, will be giving a webinar for Energy Center of Wisconsin tomorrow:

http://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/events/mastering-infrared
(I learn something new every time that I hear him speak on infrared.)

Comment by Fluke Thermal Imaging on November 5, 2010 at 2:56pm

We're with John--thanks for creating this group, Michael. Excited to share thermography information & infrared images with group members! Hope everyone has a great weekend.

Comment by John Nicholas on November 5, 2010 at 6:32am

I completed my Level I training 5 weeks ago and I've had my camera for 4 weeks. I've audited several homes with the IR and Blower Door. I look forward to learning more about what works and what doesn't.

Comment by John Snell on November 5, 2010 at 6:09am

Thanks for starting this one Michael. It looks like Home Energy Pros will be a great place to hang out, especially once the groups begin to sort themselves out and we all end up in the best places.

As many of you know, I've been using thermal imaging since 1983. At that time, working as in the Residential Conservation Service (RCS), a program funded by utilities to reduce electrical usage, it became clear that without themography, we just could not get the job done correctly. At that time we barely had blower doors! The first I used literally required a truck to move it around. We've come a long way.

I've recently been working with my colleagues and a number of our customers to find out how we can use thermography literally 365 days/year, pretty much anywhere in the country. This was not possible in the past mainly due to the limited capabilities of the imaging systems. But many of today's systems are so sensitive that "IR365Anywhere" is now a viable option.

What is required? First, having an imaging system that has thermal sensitivity of 70mK or better, preferably 50mK. Second, MASTERY of the imager, especially knowing how to manually adjust level and span. Third, understanding heat transfer basics and how residential buildings work. Fourth, picking and choosing your time of inspection—clearly this is a limitation for some people for parts of the "365." Finally, having the option to manipulate the environment using either the heating or cooling system and a blower door.
Will it REALLY work everywhere all the time? No, but my experience over 28 years tells me, by following these simple guidelines, we can be successful at finding insulation issues at least 95% of the time and air leakage at least 99% of the time. If nothing else that leaves us room to grow. On those few days when we cannot see what we need to, we should be able to at least learn something about why it didn't work and that also has great value!

I'd invite others to chime in with their experiences, positive and negative, so we can all learn from each other. The one thing I do know is I still don't know it all!

Comment by Michael Stuart on November 4, 2010 at 4:32pm

I've already noticed a few folks sharing thermal images of their work in the photos section, so I thought that perhaps they may be interest in an official infrared thermography group for HEP members.

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