Are efficient LED bulbs worth the price?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dennis McCarthy on December 5, 2012 at 12:45pm

Curt-

 The contention that current production LED luminiares run hot-

Well it's true - while at the same time I would say that depends which

luminiares you're speaking of  are your talking about cheap chinese

made  ones that use DC/LEDs and have poorly designed light engines Yep

those suckers do run hot -

 

However - to refute the point I could speak to

you about LED products that utilize AC/LEDs in their design - THEY DON"T

run hot - there is a whole subclass of luminiares that use this approach - they

come in common form factors ( A-19s, Par lamps, B-10s etc) my guess

is you made a generalization there- And then there are "newer Dc Led

products" ie Philips Fortimo the unit I have in front of me - Its been on for

several hours - the light engine module is at 88 degrees and its slim

profile heat radiating fins are reading 99 degrees - this from my I/R

CAMERA - My cheap Black& Decker IR thermometer says 100 -

either way I wouldn't characterize the heat output as very hot -

these examples are a couple of degrees more/ less than skin temperature.

just adding that to the conversation- also alternate materials for

luminiare construction can be found - ie High temp  therm plastic materials,

ceramic, carbon fiber  so thats another part of the rebuttal process-

- I'm trying to refute things that are presentated as facts by folks who's

acumen on the topic may be a little lacking it's part of my mission to

advocate, spread the word  & get fact based info to the masses !

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Permalink Reply by Curt Kinder on December 5, 2012 at 12:57pm

I'm glad to read that progress is being made on the technical aspects of LED lamps...exactly what I predicted.

Can you explain to me why I should pay $20 or more today for a product whose steepest price drops have yet to come?

When I paid $20 twenty years ago for early CFLs I admit I was wowed by the "cool" factor. Now I'm older greyer jaded, and more patient.

Is it a good bet a 60 Watt equivalent LED will like both cost much less in two years, last even longer, use even less power, and dim better? What's the hurry?

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Permalink Reply by Dennis McCarthy on December 5, 2012 at 1:28pm

Curt

 Its the old adage you get what you pay for - some aspects of

the current price points involve You the average customer paying for

2009 technology IP ( sorry it's been built in to the cost's) the average

customer does't realize there is gold in light engines design - thats a

costly component - if you want things like better optics - they cost too !

 

 

Thats the For now part- as the SSL industry evolves it's true prices

will come down - so the Undesirable $9.99 40 watt equiv- LED at HD

IS ALREADY the minimal resistance price point - and likewise

a lot of other form factor price points will be lowered - but for what

a LED lamp w/o built vacancy sensor, or one that is stuck on a single

CCT ( until color shift occurs- due to inferior design & components) ?

The good stuff will always fetch a higher price , but as the value of LED

luminiares rests upon them being the Right products - on multiple levels

The whole pricing paradigm is going to be fluid - due dilegence in the

selection product is critical - if you wait another few seasons you will

see OLED s and other options  devalue LED products that work

ok , but just OK - they will be screw based lamps that fill a need.

If your needs can wait- absolutely prices for pedestrian - common stuff

will drop - most of my products cost me $7  to $35. - not obscene consider

-ing when I expect a decade of use from them, Oh and these "pedestraian

- shelve ready products are using a penny or two for daily operations

- Maybe a CFL can do ok - but, Oh the atrocious color quality - their

inappropriateness of use when coupled with controls - its a value propoposition. Some want cfls- to each their own...

 

Not every proposition gets an affirmative response - I get that !

As I often say" go ahead do what you will - it's a semifree country"-

but I have an environmental sensibility - I try and do whats best for

my region  . Eventually in 8 years or less EVERYONE will be

using the tech of that timeframe !

Permalink Reply by Tom Delconte on December 4, 2012 at 1:06pm

Hello Dennis,

The Phillips L Prize 60w equivalent Model 9290002097 has been updated to 10w, 27.4yr, 940 lumens, 2700k. It costs roughly fifty dollars. It requires a three inch extension in a standard high hat fixture, available from china for an additional three dollars.

If you already have CFLs installed  throughout your home which use about 20w each, so that you can actually see, the payback period of the LED is so long it's not worth calculating. However it is known that certain brands of CFLs last longer than others, complicating the calculation.

My favorite magazine is currently evaluating my favorite LED, above. They will weigh in shortly. In the meantime, we have gov't tests of early L Prize bulbs, which we know to be flawed, since they only place the bulbs in a hot box. In the real world, bulbs are exposed to voltage surges, vibration, excess heat, and installation and removal, which shorten their lives. The LED technology is improving quickly, so that it makes it impossible for a person to know when to jump in.

As I told my spouse, as a guess, maybe $5-10 is the right price point to convert from CFL to LED. I ignored your talking down statement about the computer vs the pencil. Please continue to confuse the rest of the world, but leave me untouched. I'm at an advantage here as I'm not selling LED technology, only seeking best technology available at a low and reasonable cost! We're talking about converting from CFL to LED here, not incandescent to LED!  t

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Permalink Reply by Dennis McCarthy on December 4, 2012 at 3:05pm

Tom

 I know the Philips product line well - I sell them and use them

If my passionate advocacy is working against me in using a" comparision '

then it's a part of my message delivery I'll have to work on.

There is no benefit from me "turning folks off w/ a derisive tone".

 

As for the choice of a CFL vs LED - the CFLs are so inferior  that

it defies me why people choose them ( they had a peek popularity

of (19 %) and thats been decreasing and the industry info I have is that

by 2018 - 2020 they will be phased out - none too soon - how many

other items that contain neurotoxins do we  bring in to our homes ?

AS for confusing people _ I try do  the opposite.

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Permalink Reply by Curt Kinder on December 4, 2012 at 8:32pm

Our house is 99% CFL - sole exceptions are refrigerator and oven interior lamps. We are perfectly happy with them.

The one type of CFL that consistently fails to satisfy is the fully enclosed spiral within a sphere typically deployed over vanity mirrors (several of our rental properties have these but not our main home). The enclosed spirals seem to take a minute or more to warm up. In those fixtures I now deploy GE Hybrid "bright from the start" bulbs that fire a halogen for the first minute.

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Permalink Reply by Dennis McCarthy on December 3, 2012 at 7:22am

Tom

As a solid state lighting professional- lighting auditor, I want you and others to go out and buy some now-

I use these in my own home, they are pretty good lamps.As far as calculators, there are many available.

The initial math, related to kW savings is just one consideration. Would you prefer not to have to

get on a ladder and change lights frequently? its another consideration.

 

The rationale to use them is there, the cost's have come down and the illuminance is very good -

with the sought after CCT ( color temperature) ie 2700 K or 2900K the CCT range of the ubiquitous

A-19 lamp-it is good for home use. As for the appropriateness of that CCT for a work environment - it's debatable.

If that would be in your best interest,( a whole subset topic) the CCT range and a desired selected

"set" CCT makes the Endura and other popular Philips LED luminiares - somewhat innapropriate

for the tasks at hand in a business office- (unless the office environment indicates a CCT range like

that - an example would be the interior of a funeral parlour that should be around 2900K)

- which would be inappropriate at an architect's drafting room, or a jewelry store.

 

If you want to send me a PM I would be happy to give a more detailed product summary -

I've been selling and promoting LEDs -- SSL for many years - I have more info and

acumen on the topic then anyone else in this forum ( most likely) -I could provide insights that

might make your choice an excellent one .  read the next bit...

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Permalink Reply by Dennis McCarthy on December 3, 2012 at 7:37am

 The one bit of news for folks switching to LED lighting next year-

 

I am pleasantly SHOCKED by the scope and breadth of advances

in solid state lighting over the last year- there have been so many

improvements , refinements & broad price drops market wide. It

is a good time to be starting the change over to LED lighting.

procrastinators, you did OK on your value proposition.Because...

 

With so many new advancements I can say ALL of you folks will be

using SSL at home + work within 100 weeks and the newer products

will have many improvements ie : lumens per a watt, Tuneable CCTs,

integrated IR sensors built in that detect room vacancy - built in

things like smoke detectors, air purifiers, speakers, addressability

for more functionality like seen in the Philips Hue- Ipad/ Iphone controlled

multi hued residential lighting....

do you want to be blown away by the WOW factor

 then the advances in TFT, OLEDs  and OLETs along with advances in

controls will dazzle you- REALLY, the future will have an array of sophisticated lighting - you folks

can barely imagine. So yeah folk jump on the bandwagon NOW. but keep high hopes

for even better products in '13 +14- you will definitely see the trend continue !

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Permalink Reply by Glen Gallo on December 5, 2012 at 8:12am

Interesting conversation

I like the LED light but would agree with Curt that the cost does not justify the difference at this time. However cost is not everything. There is the coolness factor and for many the LED is just plain hip. There is the health issue with mercury in the home as well.

I think either product is a huge upgrade from incandescent.  I tried bringing some LED’s home at one point and the better half did not like the spectrum. This was some time ago and I know that much has changed since that costly mistake. Dennis suggests there will be more changes over the next 24 months. Since I believe he has probably forgotten more than I know about LED I look forward to seeing the new technology.

 While I do believe that mercury is a problem it has been well documented that the amount of mercury released by a  coal power plant for using more watts needed to burn an incandescent vs a CFL far outstrips the amount of mercury in a CFL. I do not ignore the problem but I am not swayed to not purchase the product nor do I shy from suggesting it to customers as an alternative to incandescent. I think we can all agree they should not be in the landfill and should be recycled.

I often see the figure of 13 watts but many CFLs run at less. The one next to my TV/Reading chair which illuminates just fine runs at less than 8 watts. While CFL were once and still are reviled I think the newer models aka the last 5 years or more have fixed the issue of flickering and color and are quite nice.

I think the biggest gain in LED is the spread has become much more pleasant. The lack of light diffusion I believe is one of the issues my wife did not like in the older LED that I have. The color is much better today as well as these lamps my wife disliked were very white.

I am unconvinced the health concern is of such great extent to trump the cost for me and believe the risks are low. At a cost of less than eight dollars for four bulbs at Home Depot CFL lighting is extremely cost effective.

I do not think the coolness factor can be overlooked as very few things in our industry are considered cool to those outside our industry besides PV solar and LED’s. Folks will pay for cool.

For those that despise CFL’s the choice is easy.

Glen 

htttp://rede3.com

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Permalink Reply by Curt Kinder on December 5, 2012 at 9:07am

When one of our 50 or so CFLs dies, which seems to be about once per month, I drop it off at the dedicated box at Lowes or HoDepot

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Permalink Reply by Tom Delconte on December 5, 2012 at 12:15pm

Curt, great idea! I always forget to stop at HD to dump the dead ones, gotta step it up! thanks, t

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Permalink Reply by Tom Delconte on December 5, 2012 at 12:14pm

Hello Glen,

Thank you for your comments. I agree with most of them. Especially like your point about significant others and how the light looks. For HGTV watchers especially, this is huge! Meanwhile, back at the "test lab..."    t

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